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Post by Lunar13 on May 10, 2005 13:55:22 GMT -5
Hmmm, well about Hanzo in SSVSP, I guess maybe I need to try to play with him some more. Normally in a fighting game series, no matter how bad they tone down my fav chars, I usually still use them pretty well and never give up, but I guess this was a first for me. I guess I was just so used to his quickness and low recovery time, and the latest hanzo version seems like now he ate too many donuts and is slower, more vulnerable than before.
But I dont care about abusing cheap ass fireballs. Anyone who has played my Hanzo in IV will know that I dont even try to get POW, and when I do get it, I dont abuse the fire balls. What I do try to do instead is I will make the person think I will abuse them, but instead use his super which is anti air so they will fall into my mind game/trap. Or sometimes I will try to go for the CD 1 hit into the fireball then jump C combo, but I dont just sit there and wail on the fire balls like most people do. My hanzo is very offensive. I go for alot of grabs, slide kicks into the ground stab, wake up fireballs, and anti air attacks with my own air attacks. But in V... This style is much harder, but I will have to give it a try...again.
Ok, enough about Hanzo.
Basara time! I fell in love with Basara in 3. He became my third favorite character, hanzo being first, Ukyo being Second. In 3 he was amazing, though his command throw was hard to pull off on the fly since it was HCF+a with a pad, and it didnt do all that much damage if I remember correctly. And he still had his anti air fireball move+his one that is a teleport fireball thingy. AND in 3 his air fireball could be pulled off at anytime in the air.
But in 4 they screwed him up. Though I will say his command grab rocks in 4. He lost his anti air fireball for slash, and now his air fireball has to be timed to be pulled off. In other words it cant be done no matter what position he is in the air. This took me a long time to get the hang.
Now in 5, he can now be played like how he was in 3, but now has the addition of the shadow fake outs+more. And his dragon punch move from Bust now tracks ALOT better, as where as in 4 it just hit the exact place the opponent was at the exact time you press the input command.... which really REALLY sucks. I can easily see why Basara is a leading Tier in 5.
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Post by Widowmaker on May 11, 2005 21:43:12 GMT -5
RWD, Vansibel thanks for tier lists. 1) RWD, why Yun-Fei, Kazuki and Kyoshiro are only mid tier? And why Nacoruru can be High-Mid, isn't she have bad range and few good damage possibilities? About Zankuro - what are good sides of him what can make him Mid tier? 2) Vansibel, why Shizamaru in SS4 is so weak? He looks very powerful in SS5/Sp. And Basara - isn't he very vulnerable to some characters because of his bug?
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p100q
Advanced
Zealot
Hibari~hm, Interesting...
Posts: 130
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Post by p100q on May 12, 2005 0:13:20 GMT -5
Shizumaru is weak?
I have no clue. He's been always good. He's not an easy character to master, but indeed, he has the most cancel move that you can think of.
Can you be specific in what part of Shizumaru can be described as so "weak?"
If I may only assume, you may have never learned how to be good with Shizumaru. It's a long way to learn Shizumaru, but he's worth to master since he's one of the most potential character who has a good verstile tactic along with some combos that adds to it. He seems powerful enough; however, if you ask for anything beyond what Shizumaru is capable of, then you must be asking for an infinite or something that's totally out of sense. He's very good, he's even faster in SS4 than any other series. Of course, you gotta learn how to play him as such a verstile way. That's the most powerful tool to bring out the best of Shizumaru which also pushes the limit beyond his character himself. That's what his great cancel move does. You must learn to master each and every to use it efficiently during the match. I believe that seems a bit risky if you are not confident but then again, you can also lead his verstile tactic into his combo that does a pretty good damage as well. An expert will always use the best for whatever it takes to make it happen. He has no limit. Look at all the moves that you can perform with Shizumaru, what else are there to ask for more?
We know Amakusa and Ukyo are the weakest character in Samsho4. Indeed, they do also consider to be a strong character, and especially for Amakusa. No matter who you pick or what you do, the most powerful characters in Samsho4 can be described as followings;
1. Nakoruru,
2. Galford,
3. Haomaru
=> He may not have many guaranteed moves like Genjuro. Haomaru can be more verstile, precise, and offensive than Genjuro, who is also a good character as much as Haomaru. Therefore, no matter how good of Genjuro can be, Haomaru can overcome an obstacle over any attacking range to even any guaranteed move that can be performed by Genjuro or others. He also has a great strength to put the opponents in a defensive position beyond their most tactic, or even some guaranteed move.
In order to perform a guaranteed move, you gotta be verstile enough to use a cancel move beforehand. It's very difficult to follow after Haomaru because of his strength that puts a great pressure on the opponent, and he also has a great verstile tactic to limit opponent's options beforehand. I believe that verstility is the main key to master a character, or to bring out the best if a character is already strong enough. Nakoruru has both, plus all the options and then again, all her move is based on an infinite. As a matter of fact, therefore, she can be the most powerful character in Samsho4 that I strongly believe in my own opinion.
4. Hanzo
=> Well, I personally would add Genjuro over Hanzo instead. I doubt, somehow, Hanzo is not verstile enough as much as Galford. Therefore, he can be very limited to fight against an expert. If not the fireball, he's not even near a threat at all, but Galford is.
Galford has one of the most AKA "infintie" tactic along with Nakoruru. His tactic applies to all other characters. Therefore, he has so many guaranteed moves to perform with. Pretty much everything that Galford does, it can be used as a guaranteed move. Knowing the fact that Galford player can likely use the most potential out of all his guaranteed moves, it is even harder to deal with a combo (infinite based) during the match. Galford can perform a various cancel moves as well. Therefore, he is very capable of becoming the most powerful character unlike Shizumaru who has the most cancel moves, but not as strong as Galford, in terms of how simply Galford can pull out a great damage even by a single Slash Hit that Shizumaru must to perform in a combo instead.
That's a big advantage for any expert who plays Galford unlike Hanzo.
To RWD's comment on Samsho5sp...
I believe, RWD pointed out that Nakoruru can be potentially High-mid, but he listed her on Mid list. For me, that's a big change for Nakoruru. I think that's very fair enough since Nakoruru is still capable of becoming a High-mid, or even better, except she 's not as easy as you do in Samsho4.
You will have to deal with a delay that never exists for Nakoruru in Samsho4. It doesn't mean that she doesn't have a good verstility as much as what she does in Samsho4. I believe that it's like a question of Hanzo in Samsho5sp. I believe they are both very good in Samsho5sp. It's more fair and balanced on both characters and at the same time, they do have a great moves to play in a variety, considering other characters in Samsho5sp. Even Samsho5sp seems rather simple or less tangible as much as Samsho4. There are great tactics to go about performig their best. That is still possible because of their good verstility that has fairly updated rather than just limited to its most use. Their strength seems as good as they'd used to be. Especially for Nakoruru, she is super-fast. If Rimururu can be on a Top tier list, why can't Nakoruru on the same league? I believe that Nakorur is very potential. This time, it's more up to a player who plays Nakoruru. A character itself is not limited to any compared to other characters in Samsho5sp. I think Mina is a character who has the most limit in Samsho5sp. Mina took over a position of what Nakoruru might used to be. I think you will figure it out very soon when you get to watch a match clip of Nakoruru in Samsho5sp. If it is hard to understand as tangible as what you can actually get to experience, it's very recommended that you should watch some video that shows a great Nakorur players. You won't see that so many fancy moves like she does in Samsho4, but you will find out the exact vibe that you get in Samsho4. Samsho5sp seems very fair enough for the most. I think all the characters are considered to be between Mid to High-mid, except I do still agree with what NWD listed on a low tier. It's hard to even say who is better or what not, but it is easy to say who is the worst in the league.
Pat
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RWD
Beginner
Snuff That Infinite Attempt...
Posts: 34
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Post by RWD on May 13, 2005 14:34:09 GMT -5
Widowmaker, I haven't had much time to really give this my full attention due to being quite busy lately, so i'll give you the quick low-down on your questions about Kazuki, Yun-Fei and Zankuro first - i'll cover Kyoshiro (and try not to proclaim my pure hatred for him) and Nakoruru later on.
Also, since p100q seems to have quite an interest in Rimiruru's Top-Tier placing, i'll try and cover her also.
Kazuki --------
Great specials, terrible normals - that's the long and short of why Kazuki stays in the Mid-Tier area. He and Enja are tied in having the worst overall set of normal attacks in the game, they are quite slow, lack range (despite their appearance) except for maybe his standing B slash (you'd be surprised how much his distance AB slash will miss on a counter attempt at reasonably close range) and they will get constantly get beat out by just about everyone elses attacks, granted, they do have a bit of power behind them (but so does a lot of characters) and his jump-AB is pretty darn good anti-air, but on the ground, he hasn't got much at all except for stand B, dash C and crouch A for poking.
Kazuki's main game is to play constant run-away while doing D-cancelled fireball's/Enmetsu's to slowly chip away at the opponents life (a lot of characters can't counter it so well), or well-timed Enmetsu's as anti-air/rush, all the while attempting to charge up his Saien to either hit a maxed-out fireball (most likely by countering a jump-in or something) or aiming for a maxed-out Command Grab via cancelling, or anti-air if your feeling brave.
If your good at a pure run-away fest and can use his specials correctly (not spam, but tactically use), Kazuki can be a nightmare since most of his hits will probably be counters, add that to the fact he becomes Raged pretty fast and his Rage special is usually quite underestimated and overall he is a good character if your willing to play the way he is supposed to be played - but his lack of decent normal attacks to flesh out his excellent run-away game can lead to serious problems at times.
Yun-Fei ---------
It all boils down to the fact he was nerfed a LOT in Special - a good number of moves were either slowed down drastically or weakened considerably, he lost a few cancel points in moves, his flight game was toned down a lot and it's just quite a lot of work to get the win with him.
He does have some neat crossover tricks (like dash C > C Flight cancel > backwards Dive Slash for example) and some decent high/low games, but most of the time it'll be an uphill battle since he isn't the hardest hitter out there. Even worse is it takes forever for him to Rage and even if you went the route of charging up Mu no Kyouchi, since that feature of the game was toned down a lot also, it really makes you wonder why he even has a Rage Gauge.
As sad as it might sound, he also lost his ability to fly around the top of the screen forever - yes, I know it was legit cheap (since it was a very real, gamebreaking strat), but it was how Yun-Fei was classed as so dangerous on SS0 where you never knew if the opponent was going to play fair, or try and get one good slash at you then fly up the screen for the timeout win... losing that psychological factor about him makes you fear him considerably less in battle so you'll be willing to take more risks to get the win.
He does however, still possess that annoying command grab that removes all your Rage meter and gives him that pretty dangerous AB projectile (Tensatsu Daisai), this is something worth noting since the match kinda becomes like a game of Chess where the opponent will try and provoke you into wasting your Tensatsu Daisai while you'll be looking for an opening to connect with all the hits of it for pretty decent damage.
Yun-Fei is still a good, technical character to use but for all the hassle you could go through learning to play him decently, you could have been learning Suija, SS0S's 'other' technical character who has roughly the same learning curve when it comes to all his air-cancelling tricks etc. but give's back MUCH more rewards for doing so.
Zankuro ----------
The only real reason he could potentially make into Mid-Tier is the fact he is a pure 1-hit wonder character that can win a match in the fewest amount of attacks and effort - of course, you have to learn him pretty well (essentially: master the art of counter-hitting only) and take into account the attack gauge plays a bigger part of his game than everyone else which really isn't so hard, but his biggest downfall is a lot of characters can bait him to waste that precious AB slash that he WILL aim for, from there you can proceed to own him since he is no threat at all without a full attack gauge to back him up.
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