Tiers in Samurai Spirit games

[Widowmaker]

Is there any tier lists for SS games, especially SS4 and SS5Special?

[RWD]

Here is a rough list of the SS0Special tiers, do note that the game is pretty well balanced and just about everyone can compete at high levels, so here we go, in no particular order:


Top
-----
Rimiruru
Suija
Kusaregedo
Genjuro
Basara (debatable - but he is High-Mid at least)


High-Mid
-----------
Shizumaru
Yosh!tora (debatable - some considering him to be Mid due to losing just about everything that made him good in 0, but I still think he is an excellent character regardless - oh yeah, and the board kept censoring his name, haha)
Sogetsu
Rera
Hanzo


Mid
----
Gaira
Haohmaru
Rasetsumaru
Ukyo
Yun-Fei
Kazuki
Kyoshiro
Amakusa
Charlotte
Nakoruru (potentially High-Mid - i'm not 100% sure to be honest)
Jubei (i'm not sure of this one at all since i've barely seen him played - i'm just guessing here)


Low-Mid
-----------
Enja (debatable - his core character is a one trick pony with nothing much going for him, but if he was allowed to use his speed up move, then he would probably go up a space or 2)
Gaoh
Zankuro (debatable - possibly Mid)
Galford


Bottom
---------
Tam Tam (debatable - but I believe this was an official Japanese ranking and I don't play Tam Tam so I won't argue)
Mizuki
Mina


If anyone wants to discuss/argue with these lists - feel free to do so, but keep the conversation clean and intelligent since most tier discussion threads turn to flame wars.

Edited: Missed out Nakoruru from the list... I think I have everyone now.

[Vansibel]

I still beleive that it is a bit too soon to draw an absolute or "official" tiering in ss5sp, altought there is a few characters that are defenitly rising up. I don't know where that list come from, but there certainly a few points that could be argued with. For example, I can hardly see Haomaru and Rasetsumaru on the same level. I would agree in regular ss5 but were talking about special here. A good haomaru turtler would be at least Hight-Mid. And about Mina, I don't see why she would be so low under basara since they both can be killed in 2 hit, and she have more safe moves that can hardly be punish. From what I saw, a good mina just don't get hit more than once with AB. I'd say she would be 3rd strike akuma of samsho, either you own with her or get owned. And enja, if his speed move is allowed, he's undisputably go on top, and I don't even feel like arguing about that.

At widowmaker request, here is what would be a rought draft of ss4 tiering


-Godlike--|-Zankuro


              |----[--Top--]
              |-Hanzo, Haomaru, Galford, Nakoruru
-Hight----
              |-Charlotte, Amakusa, Gaira, Sogetsu, Haomaru
              |----[--Mid--]


              |----[-Hight-]
              |-Basara, Charlotte, Ukyo, Sogetsu, Kazuki, Amakusa, Genguro, Genguro, Hanzo
-Medium--
              |-Rimururu, Kazuki, Ukyo, Galford, Gaira
              |----[--Low--]


              |----[-Hight-]
              |-Kyoshiro, Jubei, Jubei, Shizumaru, Basara, Rimururu
-Low-----
              |-Kyoshiro, TamTam, TamTam, Nakoruru, Shizumaru
              |----[-Bottom-]


Keep in mind that I'm not too fond of tiering, especially in the samurai shodown series where it's usually depend on the matchup (and more importantly, the player skill). Tiering also depend on which chars are popular and also those you usually end up fighting against (for example, if everyone are playing ninjas, Gaira would be considered better than if he was played at a scene where sogetsu would be more popular for example. I think the japanese would rank Slash Ukyo higher (higher than Bust) , and Bust basara and Shizumaru would also get a bit higher in the korean scene. I've also saw a few Bust nakoruru love on the Chinese side, and bust Jubei doing pretty well in tournament, but I can't really draw signifiant conclusion out of those until I get concrete proof in a real battle (or some specially crafted sophistry for that matter). There a few char that would go higher if they were played in a "free for all" matchup (thinking of bust nakoruru, bare handed bust galford and genguro). Finally, Zankuro isn't normally selectable, but it's still a character of the game nonetheless, and if he was allowed, he'll defenetly be on top.

[RWD]

That list comes from what is commonly agree'd by most Special players (though i've changed it a little from my own observations), it comes mainly from Japanese high level play observations and my own experience - please remember that just because a character is low down doesn't mean they can't compete, they just have a harder time winning, thats all.

Anyway, lets discuss:

Haoh is a good solid character (which has always been the case in every game he has been in) but he simply dies to anyone who has a command grab thanks to D cancelling, and he doesn't have anything to really stop it happening either. His main problem is he doesn't have anything to control the match since that projectile he has will only get him so far, he has no surprise moves except for his 'overhead smash' special which barely does any damage - the fact is, he hasn't changed much at all from his SS2 days, while everyone else got options galore to use, so he is predictable in a Ryu-like way - a great character, just others are better.

In both 0 games, Rasetsu has, IMO, always been the better of the 2 Maru's. Rasetsu can control the match much better than Haoh (pure turtling doesn't get you very far in Special), while his projectiles come out much slower, the screen covering they do is much better, add that to the fact he can rage himself on command without blowing his meter, has a MUCH better rage special (Haoh's can be snuffed by simply raging right out of it and you could probably give yourself a free round while your at it) which can also be easily combo'd (more so than other rage moves) as well as being used for solid counter hijinks. Rasetsu can also snuff D cancel command grabs with his 236C ground slice which causes some problems for characters like Gaira - but even then, Rasetsu is, IMO, pure mid-tier material because he also has flaws (mainly his speed on the things he needs to actually have an advantage to begin with).

About Basara: he simply destroys most of the cast for free regardless of his semi-low health, the amount of options he has is insane, he can literally control everything that happens in the match and you can't do anything about it except hope he makes a mistake - seriously. Out of everyone that got changes from V to Special, Basara got beefed up way more than was needed, his recovery time on moves where improved, his fake out moves become actually useful, his projectile screws up just about everyone's primary gameplan (since it partially locks down - plus you can cover the bottom area with things like backdash AB razor throw which is overhead and will screw up people who instictivly block low) so all you can do is sit there and hope you block whatever he is aiming for, or avoid that command grab which is almost too easy to land once you see someone turtle up from his projectile. Basara just rocks in Special because he actually become good.

About Mina: she has literally nothing going for her since she was toned down a lot in Special - all she can do is sit back and hope a stray arrow connects and hope she doesn't eat a slash to the face for her troubles. I don't even think i've ever seen her come remotely close to winning a high level match against a noted good player. She does have her plus points for being high on the annoyance meter, but once someone closes in her it's GG to Mina and hopefully death to Champaru.

About Enja: yeah, he is a wildcard at the moment - if he is allowed his speed-up in tourney matches then he'll definatly shoot up the ranks. This one isn't worth discussion until we see him in more recent tourney play.

I'm not too fond of tiers myself, I certainly don't take them to heart when playing a game, but they do exist (obviously) and I do enjoy discussing them since it often provokes people to talk of their own experiences within a game and gives better insight on how characters could and should be played.

[Vansibel]

Before going further about mina and haomaru, take a look at those a-cho ss5sp matches (first set of 3 on top) amakusa2k5.proboards40.com/index.cgi?board=media&action=display&thread=1114572928

And about enja, from what I heard he's more used than anyone now in korea and he became top over there after they found that move. Basara can have all the options he want (which I agree can be annoying), if he mess up once and a AB slash get in he can most certainly kiss the round byebye. He can be strong for sure but saying he own anyone for free is a bit too much. It's fun talking about tiering and all but the real test of skill always lay in a real match and each player capability to use a character strenght at it's fullest (and more moves don't actually mean stronger).

[RWD]

I'll check out those match videos you recommended later, thanks.

I'll agree that me saying Basara owns most of the cast for free was a bit of an overstatement (I was in a rush to type out my post, lol) since a statement like that doesn't exactly apply to Special - but he is still undeniably up there near the top since he can control space in a way that you won't even get a chance to set up a high damage move on him, he is pure runaway/fake-out annoyance at its best until he gets the opening he needs to set up his projectile based traps, from there it potentially becomes a cycle of Basara doing a set up > attack and you trying to block it as best you can.

Vansibel said:

It's fun talking about tiering and all but the real test of skill always lay in a real match and each player capability to use a character strenght at it's fullest (and more moves don't actually mean stronger).

Agree'd - while tiering does have it's place in the world of fighters, at the end of the day it's the player who makes the characters good or not.

[DeeZ]

yo...for us ignorant ones....whats tier in a vs game?

[RWD]

Tiers are used for 2 things:

1) To outline how good a character is compared to the rest.
2) To give a rough idea of who would most likely (not always) win between 2 players of equal skill.

Tiering has nothing to do with player ability, it's all about taking into account what a character can and can't do within a match (normal move priority, zoning and trapping, infinites etc.) and how well those said abilities work against all the rest of the characters.

[Lunar13]

Quick question, Hanzo is Mid-High in SSVSP?

I would love to see someone use him well in this since to me he has been toned down to something almost useless compared to ALL the other SS games. He is my fav char by the way...

Examples:
His fireball, no matter what button, now has a seriously long delay. In 3 there was no delay. In 4 there was delay added to C(but it moved faster, still sucked though), and now, with all the buttons giving it a delay, its practicly useless.

His teleportations now have a delay AND the now the animation for this is NOT invinceble anymore...

He lost his shadow replica. This was not a Key move of his, but it does help to keep them guessing.

He lost his explosion super. This is basicly Hanzo's ONLY anti air, other than just jumping straight up b or ab. His new super, though it does look cool, is too easy to dodge, if you are playing an experienced player.

He lost his ability to counter teleport attack when hit. Now sure its still in the game, but the comand for it...WTF!?!?!? So with that in mind, it might as well be not in the game. Now this move CAN be easily avoided in all the games, but it is good against those few characters that have moves with long recovery times. Not to mention you can still catch any player, no matter how skilled, offgaurd if you only use it very rarely, like once or twice a match.

And he is now dark blue/green......That alone makes him WEAK! J/k

So all in all, all his moves now have delays(except for command throw) and he has long recovery time...

Tell me how he made mid-high tier?

Oh I dont doubt there is someone out there that found a use for him in some strange way, no doubt at all, and I want to see it!

[RWD]

For Hanzo I actually used his Japanese tiering position (which I confess might actually be outdated) and from what I understand, he got into the high-mid status for very few reasons, but they are effective and all that Hanzo really needs to win:

(note that alot of this I have done against very good Euro players in the past, so I can agree with most of it also)

* Fireball - it might come out a little on the slow side, but so does Haohmaru's and that doesn't stop it being good, plus the A and B versions control the ground in a way that it will lock down people into a guard stance due to being too paranoid to do anything since the projectile moves at a bizarre speed, several things will probably happen:

1) If the opponent stands there blocking, you can either dash B or C for a low hit - you'd be surprised how many people stay in a standing guard during Hanzo's fireball, i'm assuming people think it hits high or something. You can also apply the following point 2 strats (except the dash AB one).

2) If the opponent crouch-blocks, you can either go for a dashing guard break/command grab, D-cancelled command grab/rage, dashing AB (I think, i've forgotten on that one actually) and a few other general mind games/attack options which can pretty much overwelm an opponent.

3) If the opponent jumps, you can dash AB them and watch that move track the opponent for free damage.

With careful management - his fireball is up there with Basara's which, of course, is a very good thing.

* Command grabs - his piledriver and rage piledriver are simply brutal and very abuseable thanks to D-cancelling. His rage is up there as one of the best since it's almost too easy to hit it even against an experienced opponent since all the tricks with a command grab can be applied to it - the SS0 system just favours command grabs in general.

* Dash AB - this one slash screws up just about everyone's jump in attacks since you can simply learn to run right at the opponent while they are jumping, go underneath them, and do the slash. It'll track backwards making you safe and giving you easy damage to the opponent. Once the opponent realises they can't jump at you, that's half their options and space control gone already. Only Suija and probably Rimiruru are unaffected by this slash.

These 3 things alone make Hanzo pretty strong - combine the 3, with a good hit-n-run game and decent use of his normal slashes (which are ok in speed and range I guess) and you have a decent Hanzo in SS0S already.

Mainly, it's down to SS0 and Special making all command grabs a central part of any character that has them since they are all pretty powerful (except Galford's), can be done in several ways including scaling along the floor (while invincible to most attacks) to grab an opponent seemingly out of no-where, and are just quite easy to hit an opponent with in general (both in offensive and defensive situations).

Sorry for sounding like a parrot, but I can't stress enough just how good both of Hanzo's command grabs really are.

Add in the fact his teleports are pretty handy whenever your caught in a jam, has a brutal jump AB slash, he got increased rage time in Special, and a lot of people in Japan can pull out his counter teleport attacks consistantly like it was a Hadoken and you'll see why Japan ranked him so high.

If this question was asked before my old PC had a heart-attack and died on me, I could have gave you some high-level Japanese SS0S matches where a couple of Hanzo players were destroying just about everyone except for Rimi and Gedo players - they really had to be seen to be believed.

[p100q]

I agree with Van

I wonder what's up with Shizumaru...? He's good. He was always good since SS3, but he is even ever better in SS5sp, I believe.

It seems like people picked each character by a good defense, and power. That's very important in SS5sp since you get counter for any single move that you missed.

I'd rather say those list are suggesting that top tiers are strong on a defense and easy on an offense for a great damage. When it hits, of course, it is a quick damage for good.

I still believe; however, that also comes from a great defense. If you missed a big damage hit, then you get counter. Therefore, it may rather apply to people who plays based on a good defense and powerful tactic. It fits better in SS5sp anyhow, unlike SS4 that leads to a combo, or what not.

I'd like to add a comment on a damage measure. People often have a mis-conception like you can do more damage easily in SS4. I beg to differ. Unless you manage to do some infinite that most or we never do, especially 100% move that kills at once. I believe that common move that can be performed in a combo is somewhere between 40% to 50% damage hit at most as opposed to what you can do in SS5sp is rather simple and even greater damage hit.

For an example, Zankuro's A+B Strong Slash damage as much as Haomaru Bust's Special move in Samsho4. It almost kills a certain character as well. That's rather gay than being a top tier. Indeed, his ass is slow except his combo in SS5sp. Therefore, it's fair enough, but I wouldn't call him a top tier, but I'd rather call him a cheap character. You just need some defensive tactic and you may manage to win at some occasion against any experts.

Any Slash move between medium to long range, in Samsho5sp, you get to damage the opponent anywehre between 20 to 35% at most. If you double the gage, you will notice that most of hits that you can make in SS5sp, is much more than what you can do in SS4.

The main difference is that you get a delay for each move, therefore, this game requires a good defensive tactic beforehand that leads to a offensive tactic. In Samsho4, the defensive tactic often comes from a offensive tactic that is being used constantly during the match.

The Auto-grab hit in SS5sp seems too easy as it damages a quiet more than what you do in SS4. You may pick a character who has a Dn+C slash move in SS4, but in most case, you manage to use a combo, or you need to perform a next hit after running dash, or what not. It's still a fair move, but it's not something that is being changed much over the game balance or what not in terms of power measure.


For me, as long as a game is well-balanced, I can live with any character who is weak, or who is not powerful. I also found that sometimes, it is not easy to win over some character who does pretty much all defense and use a few strong move to win at all cost. That must be my obstacle to overcome. I personally do not like what they called, a top tier character, if a character is meant to be just strong and simple, but easy to win at all cost.

I still haven't found any reason to narrow down any character on a tier list. Everyone is good. When people talks about a tier list in Samsho, I don't know if it is meant to pick a character that has an advantage to win at all cost, or if it is to pick a character that has the most potential skill to master for no matter what the options are available to each character.

I think you may only make a tier list when you get to master a charactert at a level of God-like. That's the limit that you can't go beyond. Then you get to learn no matter how you can manage to play, there is a certain move that is not easy to overcome.

In my opinion, a top tier must have a decent speed (in the air, or on the ground, or any) to be verstile enough to perform in a variety and also, he must have a various moves in both offense and defense. You also must use all your options available to overcome any obstacle. No matter how good you are, you may only play in one way if a character is only powerful, but less verstile to take a part into various situation. However, a tier character can manage to perform in both ways except he may not be powerful enough or whatever. That's called a skill to master in order to be more verstile and precise. That's what I enjoy playing a tier character that I get to master beyond a limit of what other characters are not capable to overcome except their all time easy move.

Unlike playing a game in 3D environment, you may pick a character like Zankuro or any who has a great power and easy kill that puts the most pressure to overcome for an opponent; however, those are rather being limited to fight in a various situation.

In the environment of 2D fighter, you may never want to take advantage of an extra damage hit, when you can rather use more defense (turtle) and then, you manage to double or triple the damage that what the opponnet can do at each time. If you want to play a tier character, a player himself also must be a tier player to use a character in more various ways. I do not often see people playing in that way. Then, a character so-called, a "top-tier" seems only cheap to play with. If a game is well-balanced, then an expert should be able to overcome any obstacle. I believe that Samsho5sp is well-balanced, therefore it is very hard to say those are meant to be a top-tier.

Final thought.

The list RWD wrote is pretty much accurate. I wouldn't make a comment on who is the top-tier; however, I can agree with most of low-tier on the list.

Rimu, Shizu, UKyo.., etc. Any character who is verstile enough, the character can overcome anything against those TamTam, Mina or whatever. Especially, it may be difficult to overcome a gayness what Mina can do sometimes. I believe that it becomes very clear and fair to kill Mina at all cost. It almost seems like she deseves to die like that.

This is a sword-fight. Why would you fight against someone who throws a cannon ball or arrow, or even a bullet? Isn't using of abusive fireball enough when you play a sword-fight? Indeed, I think it is not even possible to abuse any move except a chessy powerful slash hit for those who has a strong power. And that powerful hit still comes from a great anticipation and a good defense skill.

Mina is weak. I don't mind if she can be a bit stronger. I do not have a reason to master Mina to be an expert in Samsho5sp. I hope I don't see her again for another decade. I think if you can't beat Mina, you are not yet to be an expert.

It's hard to say between Gaira and Gedo. But Obviously, Gedo has more priority to win than Gaira. Rimu is ok. Her B+C[smash down] damage even more than Samsho4. She is even more verstile this time. I will say, Mid-High instead. It's not how she is capable of doing both offense and defense. I just found, somehow, she is not that difficult to win if I would pick someone who is verstile as good as Rimururu. And I find more of those character on Mid-High tier list. So, for me, she is not a top-tier. She is still a good character to master except she is also not that hard to overcome if you are more precise and verstile. Suija is a good character, but his move damages a lot. That can be less verstile to a counter because of its delay as opposed to what Rimururu can do. I still agree somehow.

For Lunar...

I don't know where you have been... All I've seen is that there are so many Hanzo player. And they are all great. Hanzo is even better in SS5sp. It is not as easy as what you can do in SS4.

Are you asking of why is Hanzo not easy as he used to be? You may never abuse a fireball more than once, only if you are lucky. You have to be more offensive this time. But indeed, there are so many things that you can do with Hanzo. You do not need to use a Cheesy Fireball + Jmp C. You can damage about the same with Dn+AB in SS5sp. Just take a look, and double the damage gage, you will figure it out. His Kick move is great and his Fw-QCF+Slash Grab move is even greater. It does almost about twice more than what Ukyo Moonslice does damage for. He even has both moves from Slash & Bust. I can list all, but you may watch some clips to find out.


Pat

[RWD]

p100q said:

Mina is weak. I don't mind if she can be a bit stronger. I do not have a reason to master Mina to be an expert in Samsho5sp. I hope I don't see her again for another decade.

I personally thought Mina was quite a neat character, design-wise at least, and her fight style was interesting/original when SS0 was released... if they tweaked her a bit to give her some more close-quarters combat then I wouldn't mind seeing her again, I just hope they kill off Champaru, God, I hated him.

[RWD]

Sorry for the double post, but I thought i'd go back onto the tiering topic:

p100q said:

I wonder what's up with Shizumaru...? He's good. He was always good since SS3, but he is even ever better in SS5sp, I believe.

That's pretty much the long and short of it - it's just a case of an originally good character that just got better (though he is much weaker compared to his SS0 version).

There isn't really anything remarkable about him except the fact he can handle most of the cast pretty well, has great overall power and defense, a decent 'annoyance factor' and has all the tools to get the job done.

Quite frankly, I wish there was something more I could add about him, but I can't - I only ever played Shiz a handful of times seriously (i've never really liked playing him to be honest) and my original character notes I made went with my old PC, but i'll try and get in contact with one of my buddy's that does (or did) use him and try to get him to make a post about it (though he isn't a fan of forum's, so no promises).

[setsuna.lee]

RWD said:

I personally thought Mina was quite a neat character, design-wise at least, and her fight style was interesting/original when SS0 was released... if they tweaked her a bit to give her some more close-quarters combat then I wouldn't mind seeing her again, I just hope they kill off Champaru, God, I hated him.

you can make him sleep ^^!

[RWD]

setsuna.lee said:

you can make him sleep ^^!

Only death is good enough for that annoying little creep...